/sci/ - Science & Math

Yes. I have a big problem with this.

The nobel prize doesn't award infinite money. Are you retarded or something?

picture made me laugh but if you want to actually troll with it go to a different board

For all the trollage, there's a serious point about our definition of entropy there... somewhere

>>2045296

I like how "OP is a fag" is written on the newspaper.

>mfw nobody on /sci/ knows the flaw in OP picture
>/sci/ is posers who can't science for real

>>2045385

>mfw i have no face oh god someone please end this miserable existence

The micelles in the emulsion are themselves highly organized structures, so I'm not sure there's even a significant entropy difference between the emulsified and separated states.

>>2045385

Err, shaking the container turned more food energy into heat that will never be recaptured. Hence increasing the entropy of the universe.

But of course... YOU being so smart knew that.

>>2045408
Shaking the container is irrelevant because it happens before the step where entropy is claimed to decrease.

>>2045408
I'm thinking he means the large bubble of air.

>>2045408
Wrong answer

>>2045404
Good answer

>>2045296

You realize that entropy only describes thermodynamics, aka using heat energy in order to do a chemical reaction. Separation of layers is physical, not chemical.

>>2045404
Their internal structure doesn't matter. Their entropy is lower after separation because the set of possible positions of the micelles has decreased.

the classic

>>2045427
Also wrong. Heat is just physical movement on a molecular scale; the distinction you are trying to make is vacuous.

>>2045430
I don't understand what you mean. To me it seems that molecules have more degrees of freedom in the separated case than they do when constrained inside tiny micelles. Maybe you need to use your brain a little more before trying to refute me.

>>2045440

Oh, right. Thermodynamics isn't always chemical. Shit. But it always has to do with energy transfer. So since there's no energy added or taken away from the system, and it takes no energy for liquids to organize into densities, then there's really no entropy
More entropy makes the reaction, phase change or not, more spontaneous, which requires less energy to make the reaction continue. Less entropy, the more energy is required to make a reaction reach equilibrium.

>>2045454

Not the guy you're talking to, but woah. Criticism is reasonable, no need to be a dick about it.

>>2045468
Criticism is not reasonable if the criticism makes no fucking sense.

>>2045454
You have a point there. But OP's device will work even if he uses little pieces of foam rather than oil. You missed the big obvious reason OP's device doesn't violate the second law.

>>2045462
Are you sure it takes no energy to organize the liquids into densities? Think about this...

I win

>>2045486

Positive, unless you wanna count gravitational energy, but that again is not heat energy. There is no heat energy involved in this reaction.

>>2045493
And what happens to the gravitational energy? Does it disappear? Or is it converted into...

>>2045498

Guy jumps off a cliff. Would you assume that he would catch on fire? Because that's what you're trying to assume right there.

>>2045468

No, it's the intent that matters. Ignorance is not a crime unless it's wilful.

>>2045501
No, he doesn't catch fire, but there will probably be heat generated when he lands.

>>2045482
on contraire

>>2045475

No, it's the intent that matters. Ignorance isn't a crime unless it's wilful.

>>2045482

mfw realizing this could work.

>>2045519

From friction of impact, sure. But not from the actual act of falling.

>>2045306
Obviously, you'd win infinite nobel prizes.

>>2045576
If there was no friction, there would be nothing to keep you from bouncing back up to the top. Friction must be present for your entropy to decrease.

>>2045498
Gravity is a very weak force, on the molecular scale you can just ignore it.

>>2046495
In that the hydrogen bonding in water is a magnitudes stronger force.

How do you measure entropy?

>>2045440
whoa whoa whoa. Heat has a very specific meaning in thermodynamics, and it's not just "physical movement". It is the energy transferred due to thermal contact (i.e. NOT any physical work performed). There is an associated change in entropy.

So thermodynamics or not, I didn't think a system could go towards less disorder without any intervention. How does this work?

Only changes in entropy matters, and that which maximizes entropy will be the spontaneous process. In the case of water and oil, intermolecular interactions are actually favorable (negative enthalpy), but physical arrangement of water molecules to properly solvate the oil molecules would involve forcing the water molecules to assume a very specific spatial rearrangement which would actually minimize the entropy of the reaction. Take this together to calculate the free Gibbs energy (i.e. =dH-T*dS) and it turns out that the sum is positive, hence non-spontaneous--water won't dissolve oil.

tl;dr Take a class on chem (if you didn't you won't understand my post) and learn about free Gibbs energy and condition for spontaneity which is ultimately based on entropy considerations. Otherwise, U NIGGAS POSTIN IN A TROLL THREAD HURHURHRLSJlfKJDSLf.

Here's a bit more discussion since I found out I no longer have e-access to one of the textbooks I wanted to use for reference (get a screen cap).

Here you go
http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-248540.html

>>2046598
In the Thermodynamic sense it can be mathematically measured as

<span class="math">dS = \frac{\deltaQ}{T}[/spoiler]

for a classical thermodynamic system or yet,

<span class="math">S = k ln \Omega [/spoiler]

for a system whose microstates are given by Ω.

>>2046598
In the Thermodynamic sense it can be mathematically measured as

<span class="math">dS = \frac{\delta Q}{T}[/spoiler]


for a classical thermodynamic system or yet,

<span class="math">S = k \ ln\Omega [/spoiler]

for a system whose microstates are given by Ω.

does work when he shakes it. raises entropy of universe...⌂S=+....⌂H doesnt matter because there is no chemical reaction. overall universe is happy becuase entropy went up

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