/sci/ - Science & Math

annoyed yet?

oh hai

derp

I love this shit

>>1854988
Oh snap! That should actually work!

I guess it'd kinda be pointless though, considering you'd have to attach a magnet to the wall. Might as well just attach the shelf

but fuck that'd be cool!

Pretty much this is all impossible because of conservation of momentum and general relativity. I know this because I'm lrng2physix

Can someone tell me why this doesn't work? it's been bugging me

I came here looking to start a thread like this, and lo and behold, here is one. Good show, /sci/.

>>1855050
lol, if only

>>1855048
I know there's something wrong with this, I just can't quite put my finger on it...

problem?

u jelly?

>>1855081
There's actually nothing wrong with this one, until night falls and the plant begins respiration.
Also, I doubt that a single plant of that size would be able to keep up with the oxygen needs of a person, but I could be wrong. At any rate, the theory is mostly correct.

>>1855048
how the fuck would the water get up there in the first place
it would all level out

>>1855094
>plants only respire at night
>underage confirmed

>>1855095
I just realized the water would go the other way, just look up osmotic pressure, water with a higher solute concentration has a lower osmotic pressure. but what if you had the salt water on the outside and then another membrane before the turbine?

>>1855095

learn2basicchemistry

>>1855116

The salt would be carried into the opposite side and it would balance out, defeating perpetual motion.

>>1855114
I was making a generalization, asshole.

>>1855069
No, there's not a problem.

Fuck off faggit.

>>1855127

What if you put another semi-permeable membrane across the top?

These would be better if they didn't have that gay coolface.

<- OC

if you can prove it won't work, i'll buy a place ticket to your town and blow you.

>>1855159

Well, assuming you had a ship capable of travelling through warp, technically ... it would work, at least in theory.

>>1855136
Problem?

>>1855159
You're forgetting the fundamentals of Newton's Third Law and Special Relativity.

how long has troll physics been a meme?
the first one i saw was like OP's magnet-powered car, and that was just a few weeks ago.

>>1855159
why don't you prove to me that a warp drive spaceship goes faster than the speed of light. Oh wait, you can't. might as well draw a time machine and prove you can't look at dinosaurs.

>>1855177

the warp drive spaceship can travel faster than light by definition. that's why it's preceded by the term "warp-drive". check mate.

>>1855159
Presumably you would die when the explosion happened.

>>1855204

>>1855178
Isn't this theory true?

>>1855146
>coolface

You're just doing that to make me angry aren't you.

>>1855208
whats the science behind why this doesnt work

>>1855216
if you are in the earth's atmosphere, you'd rotate with it regardless of whether you are on the ground or in the air.

>>1855210
>>1855210
>>1855210
>>1855210

>>1855216
it completely depends on wind. You start off with momentum in the same direction as earth (actually now that I think about it since you would maintain the same speed if there was no wind the earth would rotate a little faster than you since you are higher up and have to move farther) so you would theoretically continue moving, but wind patterns don't always go int he same direction the earth is rotating, sometimes they do, depends on your latitude, etc.

>>1855210
it would eventually, but the mirror would have to be perfectly flat and have perfect reflectivity. and you'd have to get it up there and angle it perfectly and such.

>>1855231
If the mirror is perfectly aimed to point where you will be in 20 years from where you were 20 years ago, but yeah. good luck with that.

>>1855140
>>1855140
>>1855140
what about this?

hai

some OC up in here

>>1855208
>>1855204

>>1855301

Why hasn't anyone thought of this yet?

>>1854988
>>1855003
Except he has opposing poles facing each other, so the magnets would attract.

I've been thinking for 30 minutes, can't figure out why this wouldn't work. Someone enlighten me? OC by the way

>>1855456
Anyone? I'm seriously so excited, my heart is beating like I just ran a mile.

>>1855456
When the water overflows, doesn't it bring the salt with it?

>>1855471
Nope, semi permeable membrane means that only water can pass, not salt.
Whole reason why osmosis is even existent, in fact.

>>1855471
Oh sorry, missed the second barrier

>>1855456
PROTIP: Don't bother thinking. Remember, if you think it's possible, you're wrong.

>>1855456
HMM fuck I can't think of how it wouldn't work either...

actually shit...I give up
I think it WOULD work O.o

>>1855488
Well, if you're so sure, why don't you do it and report where it goes wrong?

>>1855456
hey, a better picture of what I was asking earlier. I've been having trouble thinking of a way it wouldn't work too, i'm tempted to test it. if you put a membrane above the turbine to keep the solute from getting into the other solution and might as well seal the outer container to avoid evaporation i don't see why it would work. But where does the energy for osmosis to work come from in the first place?

>>1855456
One little problem I see but it has an easy fix. Once water on the right side of the barrier rises, it will fall on the left, and the water will leak through the top of the barrier, missing the turbine, but if you just replace the top of the barrier with something non-permeable, that should fix it.

Still trying to figure out the idea flaw though

>>1855456
>>1855456
WAIT WAIT I GOT IT!

water would never PASS THE DAMN 2ND MEMBRANE!

it would pass the first one right, then the top membrane right that has AIR on the other side it wouldn't pass because lets say it does, then you have
Pure water ---membrane--- Salty water
and obviously because of the salt concentrations that water would want to go BACK INTO the salt water and so it would never want to get there in the first place.

If that membrane weren't there, it would probably go up, but SO WOULD THE SALT, and so you would be adding salt back into the left side with lack of salt.

>>1855496
>But where does the energy for osmosis to work come from in the first place?
>lol he actually asked that
Actually, I have no idea. I think it's just a property, but don't listen to me - just learned about osmosis a week ago. I'm going to do an experiment too, I'll post results on /sci/ if it turns out good or bad. I'll send it to you personally if you give me your email address too. And send something to me if you find anything.

>>1855498
I was thinking about that.

Yep, don't bother experimenting.

Remember, all perpetual motion is a lie.

>>1855456
maybe the water wouldn't be able to pass through the membrane at the top of the container?

water doesnt pass top membrane niggers because any molecules that go past immediately get sucked back in

>>1855507
It would still be interesting to see the seemingly convincing idea disproven. I look forward to seeing results posted on /sci/.

>>1855510
>>1855507
>>1855498
But what I was thinking was, so much water flows in from the big section that it, just by force of...force, pushes the entire sucrose solution up, which pushes water out of the membrane, whether it likes it or not. Maybe if the SPM were on a slant that would help? I don't know.

>>1855514
But it's been explained why it wouldn't work. There's no point in experimenting.

energy lost as heat

captcha: dopyrip down

>>1855516
I guess the question would be is it easier for water to pass through a membrane with air on the other side or with water on the other side.

>>1855524
Hmm. What if we did it at the top of a mountain?
>>1855523
Doesn't matter, still generates unlimited energy...at least for now.

>>1855529
its not about air pressure
its about salt concentration.
just look at >>1855498
pure water vs a little bit salt water, water would choose to go to the little bit salt water.

>>1855537
I know, i'll try to explain what I'm talking about. If you hold a hose under salt water (capped by a SPM), the water WILL go up, if only because there's so much water, something HAS to go out, whether it likes it or not.

>>1855542
To expand, can osmosis overcome the force of gravity? I've done a few labs and from what I've learned about passive transport in cells, my guess is yes.

>>1855554
it can
easily.

>>1855542
>>1855554
Hm. Maybe I was wrong.

I still think there's a flaw somewhere, because it simply can't be true.

>>1855578
I know, that's what I'm thinking too. But I can't help but feel excited.

>>1855578
If the water can't get through the second membrane then it wouldn't work. So can water easily pass through a semi-permeable membrane with air on the other side? Other than that I can't think of anything that would stop it from working.

-OP

>>1855588
Back to my original point, I think it can, but even if it can't, why not just put the entire thing on top of a mountain (where air is thinner)? But, as I said, I do believe osmosis can overcome gravity + air pressure.

OP, you ain't going no where. But sense you are so convinced, I am going to give you 5 seconds to get a move on before I catch up to you. I am going to horse rape you.

So water entering the right side fills up to the top barrier. At this point the water in the right side does Not want to leave because that would bring it to an area of lower concentration of salt. The water on the left wants in, but isn't it with the same force that the water on the right wants to stay in? The difference is that the water on the left has to pass through the barrier, which is harder to do than simply staying in one place. So the water on the right fills up, but does not overflow because crossing the barrier would mean expending as much energy to move through the barrier as it would for more water to enter, plus a tiny amount from gravity.
Is this right?

>>1855592
oh shit, wtf

>>1855593
> The water on the left wants in, but isn't it with the same force that the water on the right wants to stay in
I think that's the main question here, and it's entirely plausible, since osmosis isn't that strong anyway. But I know for a fact it can fight gravity. Again, I think an experiment would be the best choice here.

>>1855592
>OP got horse raped.

>>1855593

-op

>>1855622
Great idea, hadn't thought about that. Both fighting against and using gravity in the same system, ingenious.
Captcha: H2O myths

>>1855631
ur captcha....

aliens? FUCK WTF?
pics though?

>>1855631
not sure if sarcasm. but thank?..:(

>>1855651
Not sarcasm. You may want to lower the height to get to the top, and increase the amount of distilled water though, but that's not important. I'll show both of these to my bio teacher tomorrow and see what she says. It's actually a really smart idea.
>>1855633
Nah, sorry, forgot to.

>>1855622
An interesting revision! But I don't think it's fixed. I'm pretty sure all we've done is replace the energy to escape the top barrier into energy to overcome even more gravity so that it doesn't have to (it can now fall through). If there's not enough water on top of the barrier to push it through with it's weight, then it will stay on top. In order to get enough water up that it reaches the force needed to break the barrier, more water must overcome gravity to push down on the water below it. I'm almost entirely positive the numbers won't work out.

>>1855651
pretty sure he was serious.

regardless.
lets look at forces here.

Barrier| Very thin layer of pure water --membrane--- salty water --membrane-- pure water |Barrier

which way will the water go?
they will probably cancel each other out.

if you make this verticle you basically have all the damn troll pics here, gravity won't change much.

>>1855672
same guy.
another way to look at this problem:

what would happen if you had a semi-permeable cube and you submerged it into a pool of salty water, would it empty out, no, instead the water in the cube would be constant.

>>1855681
Cube filled with distilled water, and outside filled with salt water? Cube would go empty and shrivel up.

>>1855683
if there was solid support so that it wouldn't shrivel up, would it still empty?

>>1855681
>>1855681
because there is nothing to take it's place, but you're probably still right about the top membrane

>>1855686
>>1855686
Well if there's infrastructure within the cube, it wouldn't shrivel up, but it still would empty out. An SPM is by nature very bendy, almost fluid.

>>1855683
and there you have it folks.
all the water would LEAVE AND ENTER THE FUCKIN SALT WATER for >>1855622.

>>1855692
Well, he kinda drew it wrong. It's supposed to be that before all the water in the left compartment goes out, the water reaches the top and drops down below (meanwhile turning a turbine), replenishing the water supply.
But I just thought of another thing: there would be tons of sucrose left at the top because the water is only filtered out at the end, so the concentration would go down in the right basin, making osmosis not work.
Sorry :(

But i still think my way has a slight chance of happening if the numbers play out right.

>>1855456
Basically imagine a cell with a SPM
its salty on the inside, surround it with pure water.

the cell WOULD FUCKING BURST

similarly the semi permeable membrane would burst in this example as more and more water filled it since it wouldn't leave the top membrane.

>>1855681

The water would just go out until pressure prevents any more osmosis.

>>1855700
so your saying the top goes into a HOLE?
then the SALT WATER would drop down, and the salt concentration would eventually equal.

pretty good way to power something with osmosis until the concentrations equal though, but far far far from infinite.

>>1855702
But I'm saying the osmotic pressure would cause the water at the right to go out, even if it's against the concentration gradient.

>>1855700
You could just make a slant or curve of the wall and membrane in order to let the sucrose fall down. But for reasons already explained, it won't work.

>>1855705
Never said that, just said your way wouldn't work. This is my theory:
>>1855456

>>1855706
>>1855706
no it wouldn't?

you would have pure water on at the top of the top membrane.
pure water on the left membrane.
there osmotic pressure would both be going INTO the salty rectangle, until that rectangle fucking burst.

just like a cell in pure water.

if you get rid of the top membrane you'll be putting salt water into the pure-water chamber and slowly make equal concentrations.

>>1855711
see
>>1855717

>>1855717
Yes. but before the water comes backs in, the osmosis pumps the water out of the hole into the turbine.
See
>>1855542

>>1855726
Why the fuck would the water increase until it manages to fall down? it would be a microscopic layer on top of that SPM.

additionally the hose things is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

that is using MASSIVE PRESSURE FORCE to overcome the osmotic gradient. It would probably slightly rip the membrane (if you put a SPM at the end of the hose) before water got through the membrane too. That is using an outside force to PUSH, there is no outside force in this example, its osmotic force vs THE SAME osmotic force. they cancel out.
if you put a fucking hose at the left membrane then maybe it would work, but thats the same THING AS FUCKING PUTTING THE HOSE ON THE ACTUAL TURBINE....

NOT INFINITE...

>>1855744
All right, all right, I admit defeat ;_;
Still was a nice discussion, though.
Lol @ your file name

>>1855756
ya it took me awhile to get it, I lost hope but I still thought about it and then figured it out the top membrane wouldn't leak water.
very fun man :D!
could do this all day i feel like my brain is working out.

Bitches in this thread don't know about me GIBRALTAR STRAITS

>>1855456
So...another troll image for /sci/? :D
Hopefully one that not many people will understand at first.

>>1855456
The description itself proves it isn't perpetual, if there is a substance that can be removed or change state, it isn't perpetual.

>>1855766
this would actually work.

but isn't infinite power.
your basically using power of evaporation/light and converting it to turbine energy.
NEW SOLAR PANEL METHOD? lol...

OKAY GUYS NEW CHALLENGER HAS APPEARED!

>>1855818
NO TAKERS? I WINS!
NOBEL PRIZE PLZ :D!

>>1855834
>>1855818
How do the water droplets get back into the tube? If you cut a hole, the droplets uncovered will spill out as you push them in.

>>1855854
ya haha
its not that hard :P

>>1855874
>>1855834
>>1855818
Die in a fire, please.

>>1855766

The water definitely won't be a closed system, also, some energy is gained by the cold surface via condensation. Thus, more energy would be needed to cool the surface down, etc. Lamp would use more power than the turbine would produce, as well.

>>1855818

Using the power of gravity. Eventually, your red platform will hit a point where it can't go down any lower, from the shape of the tube. Furthermore, the water at the top would try to "even out" with the water at the bottom; the water would spill out of the top tube and leave you with only the vertical portion of the tube full.

>>1855862

f=ma, a=v/t assuming you're starting from 0 velocity.
=> f=mv/t, the force of the light would be equal to its mass times velocity over time. Since photons have very little mass, the resultant force is also very little, thus the sail would not work.

>>1855902
So add another flashlight for more photons. The picture was just supposed to explain the principle of lightspeed sailing.

>>1855930

My mistake. It appears that photons are assumed to be strictly massless, and thus cannot produce a resultant force on the sail, therefore it won't work.

hey dumb shits,
even if the force generated by the magnets would be sufficent to create any movement, the fact that it is a closed system and no work is being done would mean that the net force would be 0, and any net torques would cancel so the net tourqe would be zero hence no change in velocity would occur