/lit/ - Literature

>>16646807
I thought it was amazing. One of the few books that effectively explores the everpresent violent and depraved aspect of humanity.

>>16646822
Fantastic prose as well.

>>16646807
>I really don't get how people think it's racist
some (specifically Achebe) objected to Conrad portraying Africa as the antithesis of civilization.

>>16646836
based

>>16646836
I mean wasn't this kind of true for african tribes at the time?
It's not like he describes them as brutal, animalistic people, most of the violence in the book is committed by Europeans, just as deeply spiritual and in tune with nature.
I would even say it's pretty anti-racist for its time

>>16646941
also ir's specifically the headhunter tribes that exist deep in the jungle

>>16646941
No, African and Native American societies before first contact were just as good and advanced in their own way as Europeans

>>16646807
this was amazing.

>>16646807
Nobody likes Belgians.

>>16647004
britain does

>>16646836
Man, for anyone who has traveled, especially to and African country, barring South Africa, they still are. It's not an offensive term, it's just a way to explain the difference one feels in these places, and it must have been even more so in the early days of colonization. Achebe himself would be far removed from his ancestors to the point that he would recognize himself more in the white colonozer than the black tribesman. It was Marlowes story, not a goddamn census.

>>16646822
>violent and depraved aspect of humanity
You mean of men.

>>16646992
>advanced in their own way
What is this cope language?

>>16646992
Yeah I'm not saying that they weren't advanced in their own ways.
What I meant was that they weren't really civilized in a western sense, which isn't a bad thing.
It's even touched on in the book: in the sense that the europeans, in this case Mr. Kurtz, are the reason that the natives act like savages in the first place.

>>16647064
Its the language moral relativists and post structuralists. Get used to it because its everywhere. White professors have to figure out new ways each year to explain why niggers are retarded without outright calling them retarded, and each time it is thoroughly destroyed as being cope.

>>16647056
You forgot your trip, butterfly.

>>16647116
Women suck too but their suckiness is mediocre like everything else about them. They don't reach the depths of depravity that men can.

>>16647126
the supply of good women far exceeds that of the men who deserve them

>>16646941
>I mean wasn't this kind of true for african tribes at the time?

It's true today.

>>16647126
based misogynistic misandrist

>>16647126
>suckiness
christ

>>16647126

>>16647126
What did they do with the ivory in the book?

>>16646836
>Conrad portraying Africa as the antithesis of civilization
I thought that was the London Market.

>>16647984
sent to china to use in penis pill. make vely big. and strong love time!

>>16648008
Haha I wish

The book is about Africa regressing you back into a primeval man that came from the continent [A nigger]. That's what the heart of Darkness is.

>>16646941
No, read Things Fall Apart to understand what Achebe was getting at. It explains it much better than his essay on HoD. I think he has a very good point, although it doesn’t make HoD any less good.

>>16648598
>his essay on HoD
>Americans need to read African fiction by Africans!
>By the way it just to happens thay I, an African, am also a Novelist :^)

>>16646992

>>16647006
Nobody and nobodies like Belgians. Also I’ll cite you wrong from the Monty Pythons rudest word in Europe competition (“Belgians”.)

>>16646807
just normies getting filtered

>>16646807
>people think it's racist
wait what?
I always thought it was against racism and slavery

>>16649127
The british guy at the beginning is literally the devil but you have to understand that most people have lowiq and don't understand what the book is even about. They just read at a surface level relevant to their limited world view so every black and white character represents a stereotype based exclusively on the color of their skin.
These freaks REEEEEEing about race 24/7 are the most racist fucks I've ever seen.

>>16649127
>>16649147
You guys don’t see how people could have a problem with what >>16646836 points out?

>>16649150
The situation happening in the Congo at the end of the 19th century was as close to hell on earth as I can imagine.

>>16649150
Not to mention who is at the HEART of Darkness???
It's the WHITE GUY!!!!
His hot black wife has all the 'power' or whatever but the evil rot at the core is Kurtz.
Also the book isn't even 'about' Africa it's about the descent into insanity (or hell or other kind of esoteric state of suffering) using the voyage into Africa as a parallel

>>16649155
And why do you think it ended up that way? What reason does the book seem to give?
>>16649160
Why do you think he used Africa as a parallel? Do you see why someone might object to it? Mind you both I’m not telling you not to like the book.

>>16649150
this
>>16649155

also it was the anthisesis of civilization
I mean.. how could it even be civilized if those disgusting Belgians got there?
It's depicted an anthitesis of civilization because 1. Belgians really, really fucked up. and 2. It was a different culture
Also by civilization you mean 'westernization' ? They certainly hadn't got cities like the ones in europe because it was a totally different contest, different culture
The way Conrad depicts the whole isn't racist at all. It was the reality

>>16649165
>why someone might object to it
because they hate reading about the truth?
The only people I can imagine who would have a serious problem reading it would be some kind of conservative British prude who is too ashamed that his country's prosperity was built from the suffering and slavery of others.

>>16649165
>And why do you think it ended up that way? What reason does the book seem to give?
are you retard? because it was fucking happening.

>>16649172
>because they hate reading about the truth?
What truth?

>>16649176
Imperialism

>>16649175
I asked about the reason for it happening.

>>16649176
this shit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Congo

>reality bad
>author narrates reality
>author bad

>>16649181
>>16649183
You think Achebe has a problem with the book because it depicts the horrors of imperialism?

>>16649196
I have no idea why Achebe has a problem with the book.
I have to assume he either
>Is ashamed of the prosperity he enjoyed that was made on the suffering of others
OR
>Is ashamed to read about people like himself who were forced to suffer at the expense of other people's prosperity.
Neither critique seem valid in my opinion and they both seem to miss the point of the book entirely.

>>16649187
This.

>>16647126
Men are extremes. Women can never reach our creativity, generosity and force of spirit, as well..

>>16649201
You haven’t even read the thread or the full conversation you’re replying to have you? Why do I even bother trying to have a discussion in this shithole.

>>16649215
It's my favorite book of all time.
You missed the point. It's not about racism or even Africa it's about going into the pits of hell or going insane. It's about the dark side of humanity. It's about the path we're all following on the boat and we think we need 'rivets' when what we really need is to go back to a time before all this madness broke loose.
I just read the paragraph describing Achebe's problems with the book. He's reading it a surface level which doesnt surprise me. Things fall apart was a shitty book and he seems like a grifter who rode the wave of the civil rights movement in America to sell his mediocre books to a guilty white audience. Literally a race hustler.
Prove me wrong.

>>16649215
Oh....
I totally misread your comment lmao
No I don't read the thread that's a waste of time I just show up, say whatever I want, and get in fights with people who disagree.
Usually I call them retarded....
because my ideas are always the best desu

>>16649222
>It's not about racism or even Africa it's about going into the pits of hell or going insane. It's about the dark side of humanity.
I know this, and I love the book too.
As I see it, Conrad presents the idea that this happened because of the lack of civilization to restrain people, that without these restraints people can become monsters very quickly. Now, is this because of the PERCEIVED lack of civilization, from the colonizers point of view? Or an actual lack of civilization, because the black folks living there have none? Marlowe certainly seems to think it's the latter, as he describes the tribal people as closer to the primeval human condition or whatever.
Does Conrad think the same? Hard to tell of course, but that's where the problem lies. Achebe maintains that Africans were just as restrained by their own culture as the Europeans, and in his opinion the book implies otherwise. I think it's a good point. Although "racism" might be the wrong word for it, as it's more about culture.

>>16649222
>NOOOOOO ITS RACIST THERE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ENSLAVING BLACK CONRAD IS A BIGOT RACIST NOOOOOO

>>16648733
americans don't get our humour

>>16646992

>>16646836
>>16649150
That’s not racist, it’s modernist. And within the framework of modernism, Africa was indeed the antithesis of civilization. This is more innocuous than the use of the word nigger, and they’re both a product of his time and social circumstance more than anything else.
Africa being uncivilized is also peripheral to the point of the book. I would argue that when the female chief and the entire tribe see off the protagonist at the end as he departs down the river, that this was a very clear message than Africans had fleshed out civilizations, customs, and traditions white Europeans had not even the slightest inkling of.

>>16649165
>reason
That men are inherently evil and the colonisation and exploitation of Africa by white Europeans was the climatic display of that darkness in our hearts.

>>16649306
meds

>>16649303
I would say he’s inplying that Europe is the one lacking civilization.

>>16649468
How so?

>>16647126
Women can be as depraved as men its just in their own way, the most obvious is when their maternal instincts become warped. For example there was a recent news story about the first American woman to get the death penalty in 70 years: She strangled a younger pregnant woman to death, cut her open and pulled the baby out of her womb, then attempted to raise the child as her own

>>16649508
If a man did that he would be called a cuck for raising another man's child

>>16647056
Nations under female leadership experience more wars or their society has collapsed entirely, historically this is the case

>>16649515
https://youtu.be/OFmzWysiEgM

That’s not what a cuck is though

>>16649515
whats your point

Saying HOD racist is projection. The novel is based on Conrad’s experience and the themes centre around a white man moving from London to a jungle where the trees grow through the floor boards. He sees the depravity happening there. I don’t see the African people cast in a negative light; Conrad is specifically trying to parallel their society with Europeans. I see Conrad writing about what he knows and people getting angry because he didn’t write the book as if he was a black man who grew up in a Congolese tribe. Assigning the racist tag to the book means you have assumed savage = bad which is the exact idea that Conrad was in some ways trying to get passed (destruction of the lady with the lamp ideal that Europeans had).

>>16649520
For examples, queen vicky had her family marry Tsar Nicholas but then refused to help them and we know they were executed,Kaiser willhelm also would not listen to his grandmother queen victoria and we know what he did

Reigns of monarchs in turkey, Austria-Hungary, Russia and Germany all collapsed because of that cunts matchmaking and says nothing of the forced marriages she committed that never made it to the top like Victoria’s family in Romania

She had cousin vs cousin, brother vs brother, sister vs sister

The war that came killed more people than any other war to date

>>16649211

>>16649520

It’s funny how /lit/ is willing to have proper discussions about books almost only when it’s to defend them against the SJWs.

>>16649541
past, not passed

>>16649504
If the lack of civilization is why the colonizers acted so inhumanely. Obviously it’s the lack of the colonizer’s civility. Conrad is bringing to question our concepts of civilization, in a manner reminiscent of modern anthropology.

>>16649211
Lucretia who was raped by the son of the Roman king (happened to be the last king because of her), after the rape she committed suicide and her husband and father, enraged, vowed to avenge her, in the process they overthrew the Roman monarchy and created the Roman republic

She had spirit

>>16649579
Wrong, most brutal dictators were men. Men are too emotional to rule, their pride and lust of power always outweigh empathy.

>>16649640
If neoliberals has their way Africa would have been given the sentinel treatment, locked away from outside world and influence

Africans would not exist on other continents nor would they have advanced any, the tiring meme that they didn’t invent a wheel? Yeah they would still be living that

>>16649661
You might me right, might be wrong, I just like to argue, but am getting off this so won’t be looking up sources to continue the argument

>>16649661
Actually, 100% of dictators were women. Look it up dumbass. I’m out, I can’t keep arguing with uneducated morons.

>>16649704
Leave the research to me, my job is to destroy ignorant and bigoted opinions

>>16649710
Classic m*le cope
Men can't rule, history proved that time and time again.

>>16646807
Shit book from start to end, and I couldn't care less about niggers

>>16649710
>Actually, 100% of dictators were women.
>uneducated
you are retarded

>>16649722
>>16649784
Am I on 4channel or youtube?

Conrad was a nigger lover

>>16650043
You are on the new 4channel
male supremacy is over, deal with it misogynerd

>>16647126
>They don't reach the depths of depravity that men can.

Norman Bates's mother was far more depraved than Norman Bates.

>>16649222
Brutal and based

>>16649663
>tfw unironically want this
Too bad China wouldn’t care and continue to exploit resources

>>16650151
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I hate niggers, Jews. Some spics and guedos.

I don’t hate trannies, no reason to, for the simple reason they’re mere existence is a phantasmagoric spark of the American dream, soon to Be destroyed by the race wars, the knock out games. Don’t mind faggs. I realize they’re not good, see above. I even might be one. Who cares hahah.
The war... will be hard fought eh? Yes. Will I see you brother? I hope so, on blasted fields, aye, I would hope so.
Niggers. Yes I’m from America. I’ve interacted with many, one or two were even great friends, closer than brothers. They’re gone know to where I know not. All that’s left is hate. I know it’s the Jews. I know it’s they who put the men black with the women wight on screens plasmatic. I understand. I lay on blue glass rumination.
I don’t know. What to do. Aye, they make up 13, maybe 14%? Aye put them in a place to hold them, then leave them. All. Slay the false sons then, maybe before. Nuke isreal. Won’t bother me.

>>16647004
they´re nice people

>>16646807
Me and my supervisor bonded over the fact we both read classic literature. He said he liked lord jim but not heart of darkness which is strange but respectable.

>>16646836
I've heard it's more fact than fiction, especially when you read into what king leopold did. The only ""racist"" aspect is that he uses the nigger word

people forget about the black man´s buden which is the sole reason that africa was, still and will be a savage shithole, black men can´t into civilization, they belong to nature, pure and through, there´s a reason why black supremacist use symbols of wild animals as a way to express their nature towards their overlords (anglo-american liberals)

>hey let me tell you this story here
>about AFRICA
>it was a whole lotta fun
>but not really
>let me tell you abuot getting my steam boat stuck
>annnnd 100 pages later
>oh damn this one guy was killing every one for ivory
>damn
>cut to present
>and thats why my hearts always been
>"of darkness"
>the end.

any one else notice English wasn't the authors native language?

>>16646807
The problem is that this book is about Africans and written by a white man. You should be reading a Black writer's experience on Africa, or otherwise you're not actually learning anything. There's no excuse to be reading this today, this does nothing except perpetuate Racism.

>>16651861
The main point of the book isn't Africa though.
That's why they could just switch it to Cambodia in Apocalypse Now.

>>16651861
LOL my mom is African and she is white. She was born in Zimbabwe. You're not saying Whites can't be African are you?

>>16646807

It's not racist, it's just accurate.

>This really was the Heart of Darkness
I mean, really?

>>16651861
The book is about a white mans venture into africa. If it were from the eyes of an african in africa would be totally different.

>>16646836
How racist of him

>>16652117
would he be entirely wrong in saying that. what's your mums family history there i wonder

>>16647106
repost image I wanna see some diamond destruction

>>16649515
lmao eyes opened

>>16649504
Don't you remember the part when the narrator reminiscences the Roman soldiers entiring the celtic territory in their boats in the Thames?
The barbarism represented by the wilderness? Then who does those acts in the novel's story?

>>16653434
Well yes, 4th generation African. She's Zimbabwean and African. By saying she's would imply a person of African descent in America is not American, or a person of Indian heritage born in Canada is not Canadian. It's a nationality not a race.

>>16654881
>by saying she's not*

>>16651861
>He thinks you learn something by reading Literature and not the other way, that you need to be knowledgeably prepared to correctly interpret a book
Oh I laugh

>>16648072
Unironically just used for luxury items only the rich could purchase. For example piano keys, ornaments, etc.

The ivory trade could basically be the Marxist poster child of exploitative capitalist western imperialism (if you wish to think of it that way).

>>16654893
Both of those things can be true at the same time. Both of those things ARE true.

>>16650686
>Norman Bates's mother was far more depraved than Norman Bates.
What do you meme?

>>16647056
You will never pass.

>>16649661
>implying "muh empathy" has any role in politics
Low-grade humanities graduate confirmed.

>>16652117
Zimbabwe is the perfect modern example of the decivilising tendencies in Africa.

>>16646836
>portraying Africa as the antithesis of civilization.
But it objectively is. What brainlets

>>16647056
back to the kitchen femoid

>>16647133
So does the supply of complete and utter cunts.

>>16647133
>the supply of good women far exceeds that of the men who deserve them
Is that why women are riding cock carousels of chads today?

>>16646807
>assigned book
>people hate it
Why are you surprised

>>16649150
Not knowing history I guess.

>>16646836
He also portrayed ancient Brittain as the antithesis of Roman civilization in the same book.

>>16646807
Its considered racist because it portrays the British as natural savages just living with the veneer of civilization. Strip that away and the Englishman becomes indistinguishable from the Black Africans in the most remote regions of Africa. British people regard this as very offensive as they consider themselves a naturally superior race.

>>16657784
Based