/sci/ - Science & Math

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uelHwf8o7_U

MWI is the most convincing interpretation.

>>12437958
I still don't understand how the cat could be dead and alive at the same time. If the cat is alive, isn't he necessarily not dead?

>>12438672
Yes, and that's the problem about copenhagen interp that Einstein raised. There can only be a cat that's alive or cat that's dead for us. In Copenhagen world, we can't know until we "observe" it. Yes its undefined in copenhagen. But most copenhagenist think its soul/consciousness bullshit or allude to it. Then there's the problem of what happens to the other cat when we look? Copenhagen says its destroyed. Which is another thing that copenhagen has no way to explain.

>>12437958
Quantum probability doesn't actually exist, it's backwards causation. "Wave function collapses on observation" is just a cope. Every physicist under the sun dismisses backsards causation because they don't want to be the one to try and construct the next big theorem.

>>12438672
>>12438745
The cat observes the state of the system and it collapses to it being dead or alive. From the cats perspective the wavefunction has collapsed. From an outside observers perspective, the state still exists in a superposition. There is no "overall true system", which is natural because wavefunctions are relative to observers.

>>12439083
>From an outside observers perspective, the state still exists in a superposition
No. Why would it? Superposition isn't relative.

>>12438672
Physhits schizophrenia.
The cat is either dead OR alive, but not both.
I mean if they want to pretend they base themselves on math there is law of excluded middle.
Say the do the experiment once. bam cat is dead. but you hav no idea. still fucking dead.

>>12438672
Its in a superposition of states, basically if it has a real state we cant know what it is so its foolish to say it definitely has one. It has a probabilistic state that can be modeled using the superimposition of its states. The collapse occurs upon any measurement because it removes the probabilistic nature of the states in favour of a definite one.

>>12439529
>No. Why would it?
What do you mean no? Yes it is, this is literally standard quantum theory
>Superposition isn't relative.
Yes it iis, this is standard quantum theory

>>12439724
Law of excluded middle isn't universally valid. The entire philosophical school of constructivism doesnt use it.

>>12438672
It's not, it's a major flaw in copenhagen. Lets expand on it further by replacing the cat in a box with tzar bomba in a box in the middle of new york city. If the cesium atom degrades, the nuke goes off. Is the entire city now in superposition? Is the entire planet? Is the entire solar system?

>>12440309
>this is literally standard quantum theory
Absolutely not. Where do you get these weird assumptions from? Superposition isn't coming from missing knowledge about something.

>>12440441
The observers are inside the "box" dumbass

>>12437958
Only Bohmian mechanics is right, everything else is wrong.

>>12440446
The mixed state is relative to observers.

>>12437958
Does it not mean anything that the cat knows the state?

>>12440570
Reality is objective, solipsism is false.

>>12440691
The fact that mixed states are relative to observers is experimentally proven.

>>12438672
The whole point of that analogy was to point out the flaw in quantum theory, not to ascertain how it works.

It's something a lot of people miss. This is a reason why it -doesn't- work, not why it works.

>>12440544
>observers
Moving from one unexplained phenomena in copenhagen to another unexplained phenomena doesn't save copenhagen.

>>12440761
There are no mixed states, its just one state or another. There has never been an experiment to show two states at the same time.

>>12440544
But the mixed state is relative to observers, the stuff outside of the box is not observing :)

>>12437958
The real answer is that physical matter has a time "length" that extends forwards and backwards from the fixed point, which allows them to interact with. In this way aspects of QM such as virtual particles are not breaking thermodynamics as the energy is merely being temporarily dispersed along the time length of the particle, and it doesn't break relativity as technically the particle is existing in multiple time states, and not actually travelling.

>>12440970
>relative to observers
What does this mean?

>>12437958
>is too much to handle for quantum theory

>>12440887
No one is arguing for copenhagen. Copenhagen has been updated to more modern interpretations like Consistent Histories and Relational QM.
>>12440894
Wrong
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1902.05080.pdf

>>12440570
I was asking for a source. If a state "collapses", it does so universally.

>>12440970
Would you agree or reject the following statement:
Superposition of states reflects the fact that we don't know the state of a system.

>>12438672
That's because the cat IS either dead or alive, not both, no superposition bullshit. The Geiger counter "observes" whether the particle's wave function collapses, and then the cat either dies or lives. Your ignorance about the cats status is no more special than not knowing whether there's a guy making a right-hand turn in an intersection 10 miles from you right now.
The cat thing is a strawman made by Schrodinger because he was autistically screeching at and triggered by the Copenhagen Interpretation.

Can we just say that it's impossible to know whether it's alive or dead, but its one or the other. Same way that it's impossible for us to know about stuff that's happening too far away for the light to reach us, but stuff is still happening out there. t. knows nothing

>>12441377
No, because you and I could run the same experiment in the same room and I'll get spin down and you'll get spin up. see the paper >>12441307
The universe is literally relative to observers and updates itself as observations occur through time. There is no "objective thing" going on. There is no "multiverse where everything happens uniquely in each branch".
The universe LITERALLY exists relatively as it evolves.

>>12441318
I think it's both; quantum particles likely have novel traits that allow them to legitimately exist in multiple locations, but not in the way copenhagen or MWI allow.

Modern QM needs to break some laws of thermodynamics to function, which means it's not actually breaking those laws and our current theories are way off

>>12441388
You will see how relative it feels when I fart in your face

>>12441307
Consistent Histories and Relation QM aren't physics theory.

>>12441388
Wrong dumb ass. Universe doesn't update to observers. Its already a predetermined collection of states

>>12440441
missing the point

>>12441644
My point is that copenhagen is right for predicting what will happen, but it has absolutely no idea what is actually causing it, and its attempt to do so is as close to a "fuck if I know" as there is in modern physics.

>>12441176
Non-objects don't exist.
Space is a fluid of loose objects.
Intactness is due to vectorial inwardness, not stillness.
Objects must eat like everything else does to carry on intact.
Attraction is objects eating space
and shitting out "heat": pieces small enough to ghost out of them.

Turnover of internal material into a body's attractive field of radiation literally cancels any net affect of time.

This happened:
Oxygen came together with a grill's charcoal bed, it fell out in pieces, but back together with the Earth (nature).
There was no net effect on how separate the pieces of the world are, only TRANSfer.

There's net conservation of "material" intactness which makes entropy an insidious commie lie.

There is the collective nigger god LEGION and the white individual God LESBIAN.*

Space isn't a vacuum: it's loose flowing pieces that objects eat to excrete their fields
which don't stop incoming objects because these fields of "TINY" pieces ghost through them.

Here's another set of facts.
The world has an infinite number of pieces, each thing has an infinite number of pieces,
each piece has an infinite number of pieces, each thing has surroundings,
and the only thing the world can have to surround it is itself THEREFORE
each thing is the world sitting inside itself.

All things are centened about an isovectorial core that results in turnover into field pieces
ghosting out through what's incoming rather than the "crystal of stillness in balance" that
imbecile Michio Kaku posited this would result in.
Mutual isopressure vectorially results in internal "heat" which "radiates" SPEWS the interiors
of the participating objects out as their fields,
which means for EACH thing coming together from separate things
JUST AS MUCH comes apart AND VICE VERSA.

*Objects literally move or remain in location DUE TO THEIR POLITICS.

>>12437958
Non-objects don't exist.
Space is a fluid of loose objects.
Intactness is due to vectorial inwardness, not stillness.
Objects must eat like everything else does to carry on intact.
Attraction is objects eating space
and shitting out "heat": pieces small enough to ghost out of them.

Turnover of internal material into a body's attractive field of radiation literally cancels any net affect of time.

This happened:
Oxygen came together with a grill's charcoal bed, it fell out in pieces, but back together with the Earth (nature).
There was no net effect on how separate the pieces of the world are, only TRANSfer.

There's net conservation of "material" intactness which makes entropy an insidious commie lie.

There is the collective nigger god LEGION and the white individual God LESBIAN.*

Space isn't a vacuum: it's loose flowing pieces that objects eat to excrete their fields
which don't stop incoming objects because these fields of "TINY" pieces ghost through them.

Here's another set of facts.
The world has an infinite number of pieces, each thing has an infinite number of pieces,
each piece has an infinite number of pieces, each thing has surroundings,
and the only thing the world can have to surround it is itself THEREFORE
each thing is the world sitting inside itself.

All things are centened about an isovectorial core that results in turnover into field pieces
ghosting out through what's incoming rather than the "crystal of stillness in balance" that
imbecile Michio Kaku posited this would result in.
Mutual isopressure vectorially results in internal "heat" which "radiates" SPEWS the interiors
of the participating objects out as their fields,
which means for EACH thing coming together from separate things
JUST AS MUCH comes apart AND VICE VERSA.

*Objects literally move or remain in location DUE TO THEIR POLITICS.

>>12441307
>https://arxiv.org/pdf/1902.05080.pdf
This is literal popsci shit
http://www.sci-news.com/physics/quantum-objective-reality-07848.html
>The theory, however, is based on a few assumptions. These include that the measurement outcomes are not influenced by signals traveling above light speed and that observers are free to choose what measurements to make. That may or may not be the case.
>Another important question is whether single photons can be considered to be observers.
Lmao in this experiment the "observers" are 6 photons. This is all bullshit to claim that there is no objective reality, quantum mechanics itself stops working when gravity cannot be ignored (quantum gravity), so quantum mechanics is not a fundamental thing which is behind everything, since quantum mechanics breaksdown when gravity cannot be ignored.

>>12441562
Nothing you said is in any way related to my post.

>>12441824
Your mom is a non-object.